I am only five chapters into the book right now, so I've barely scratched the surface. However, here's my thoughts thus far: 

The first book in the series is called The DRAGONEBONE CHAIR and the currnt king is KING JOHN.  Is it possible that this 'Dragonebone' chair gave GRRM the idea for the dragon skulls in the SoI&F? And is GRRM's JON inspired by the King JOHN who current sits upon this Dragonbone throne?  Or is it purely coincidence?

MS&T, as far as I've gotten, is only one POV right now, Simon. Simon is described as "man-tall" but with the traits of a lazy, uninspired boy who'd rather catch frogs, climb the castle walls, and just plain goof off. 

In recent years, I've grown to prefer my protags to be more mature and/or adult characters, and the 'young misfit' who becomes the 'chosen one' has grown stale. (On a complete sidenote, I'd like to see a fantasy novel where the 'chosen one' is an elderly bearded man, possibly a beggar, who finally gets a break when he somehow becomes the prophetic chosen one. As a nice way to deconstruct the 'young heroes' tropes maybe his ragtag team are all 'young whippersnappers'.) 

In terms of writing style, MS&T seems a lot more personable, friendlier maybe? Whereas Martin's prose is oftentimes dry and comes off like a university history professor sometimes.

I do find the beginning of the story a tad slow moving and uneventful. There's not much happening in the way of developing any semblance of a plot and I feel like Williams is just touring us around the castle at this point -- which wouldn't be so bad if he'd only toss a little drama in there a little more often. I mean,I'm at a part right now where Simon goes to the market, meets a friar and they talk and walk and buy some walnuts . . . something very, very small does happen at the end of this scene that earns Simon a tongue-lashing from his caretaker, but nothing significant.

I think Martin's characters were more interesting even when delivered in his dry voice, and he had some interesting hooks at the opening of GoT whereas I think MS&T is missing some of the oomph in these opening chapters.

But I think I'll stick with MS&T as I do think it has potential to become a fun, more light-hearted maybe, fantasy romp. 

I began reading Memory, Sorrow & Thorne by Tad Williams a few days ago. I thought it was interesting that this book is endorsed by GRRM and he swears its' his favorite epic fantasy. Confession time: I've only read about 60% of Game Of Thrones as the SoI&F books are intimidating behemoths, but I'm a diehard fan of the show. 

Anyways, I've definitely started to see some things in MS&T that confirms that GRRM took some pointers from this book. The main character, Simon, is said to enjoy climbing about the castle walls, for one. 

But here's something else I noticed: First, you may not be aware of this, but the pilot episode of the new Outer Limits television show from the '90s is called "The Sand Kings" and is based on a script written by GRRM which is based on a short story he also wrote. In the story, a scientist has a tank of sand in which he is growing little sand creatures. 

Well, I've just come across a scene in MS&T where the castle physician has a tank with sand inside of it and he feeds small rodents to it. 

This book must've really made an impact on GRRM for sure. 

I have an utmost admiration for anyone who even remotely can carry a tune, and so a musician is a magician from my perspective of reality.  I enjoy almost forms of musical genres, but I could never learn to make music. 

instead though, I've listened to about any and every genre of music I've come across and wondered 'what narrative does this song speak to me?'  (and that same song can speak an infinite narratives depending on what frame of mind the listener is in, which for someone like me can shape countless different stories of different genres) 

I'm sure I've taken this thread completely off-topic by now but I'll tell ya, I've never been a fan of the whole online-forum concept of "off-topic' as I feel it discourages or at the very least interrupts free-thought, stream-of-consciousness -- and that's the kind of thinking that keeps communities thriving. 

I try not to be cynical and jaded toward the topic, but after having endured it throughout the years, it's difficult. 

What I'd like to do now, if this group's direction could permit, is to explore the topic in more detail, from an analytical angle.   

Let's break things down into: Commercial vs. Fandom

And: Can Fandom become Commercial?   

Does Tolkien describe a style of literary writing? 
Or does Tolkien describe a style of fantasy tropes? 

What is the definition of 'Tolkienesque'?
Is it style? Content? Both?

What makes Martin's SoI&F different to LOTR? 
What makes it similar to LOTR? 


-
Can Tolkien's literary style be incorporated into more modern styles?
How so?
Why not?
Why should they be avoided?
Why shouldn't they be avoided? 


And I'm sure a hundred more questions could be asked that could produce another hundred questions and so forth.   

It all leads to bigger and better things. 

Or to bigger things within in the same things? 

















44

 

QuoteNephmodule, if steam-punk isn't your thing, what's your interest?

I myself am a fantasy writer, map enthusiast, and general collector of curiosities, whether digital or otherwise. I work with some particularity on my own writing projects as well as collaborating with any one who starts a tale here (in the Well of Visions) for me to join in on. I don't discriminate; if someone starts something with a bit of narrative, I'll typically jump in on it. 

What's my interest? I'm a man of a thousand interest really and yet a master of none of those.
I am a novelist who'd describe my most well-recieved series (Paladin Cycle) as a 'contemporary epic cosmic fantasy' if I wanted to be all fancy -- but mostly, it's fiction with elements of fantasy, science-fiction, romance, and drama . . . general fiction? Slipstream? They call Stephen King a 'horror' writer but most of what he writes isn't horror, so why classify?

I'm inspired by Lovecraft, Richard Laymon, Jim Morrison. I'm also from the south -- United States, southern -- and that doodle don't leave your blood, man. But I'm also a fan of philosophy, psychology and history, and occultism. 

Like I said, I'm a man of a thousand interest.

I spend a lotta time worldbuilding, locations, settings, environments, atmospheres, new societies, religions, cultures, and figuring out the myriad assortment of conflicts all those things can create. For my novels, I've created a multiverse inwhich I keep track of different things and events and happenings and characters from multiple timelines and alternate timelines on a private wiki. 

I like Faulkner and x-rated movies and Emily Dickinson and death metal music. 

I'm the cliche and the definition of a walking contradiction.

I didn't read the Reddit nor the other response to this thread. The reason being that I've been a fiction writer for 10+ years and I've been in the audio drama writing/production scene for a couple years and in both those circles I've seen this same topic become ad nauseam. 

With the rise of self-publishing and with the new trend of audio dramas catching on, there are accessible channels for creators to produce content (of varying quality) and with less 'gate-keeping' (quality assurance). But with this content also being more easily accessible by the masses in this ditial age then the content has the possibility of reaching a larger and wider audience.   

People who've probably never read LOTR or know what "Tolkienesque fantasy' is would probably listen to any Tolkien pastiche story without prior bias. Plus, there is always new generations who haven't been exposed to Tolkien who may discover it through new channels (Youtube, Spotify, pod catchers, ebook, etc.); plus, the video game industry is now rivaling Hollywood's movie industry -- someone makes a LOTR or similar Tolkienesque video game and boom! -- Tolkienesque-fantasy styled novels would be a new hot trend. Don't underestimate the power of social media marketing. 

Lovecraftian-style Cthulhu Mythos stories are still popular enough these days that anthologies still pay pro-rates for well-written mythos.


But if we're talking $$$ ka-ching capitalism . . .   

Prolly not. 

YA dystopia and YA paranormal and YA melodrama is king of the publishing world right now. Even in the romance industry, the biggest money-making scheme in the publishing world, you gotta write NA (new adult) in a modern setting.

Also, the term 'fantasy' has exploded . . . I mean EXPLODED! -- since Tolkien's days. Grimdark is (or was) a trendy new direction and that term wasn't coined until the late '80s with the creation of Warhammer 40k. 

Arguing over whether Tolkienesque-type book would sell now or not is a complete waste of time.

Might as well argue over whether a new Conan movie would be a good or bad idea for 2019. 

Quote[(Just in case you signed up with another account and want, you can change your display name through your profile if you want an alias like some of us goofballs use. Or you can use a real name. Just letting you know it's possible).]

Ah! Gotit! Thanks for the heads-upper! I'm a goofballer like ya'll, too, just wasn't familiar to this particular platform. 

Eh, I'm not a steampunker myself, but I hear it's gaining some huge momentum and always have been a bit curious about it. And I'm always on the lookout for something new and different. Variety truly is the spice of life. 

Hi guys, first post here on, but I'll toss out some things. 

First, Melusine (Doctrine Of Labyrinths) by Sarah Monette has a more 19th century Victoriana fantasy-drama feel to it than the typical medievalesque fantasy or historical fantasy. I've just discovered it and began to read it primarily for the purpose of reading something fresh -- I understand that the later books become more steampunk-fantasy like.
It has some dark subject matter, so beware.

The Darkness That Comes Before (Prince Of Nothing #1) by R. Scott Bakker. 
    Honestly, i've only read the opening chapter of this one. It seems rather profound and deeply interwoven with philosophical teachings, but at the same time comes off intimidating. But I'm gonna try to give it a shot. If any of you have read it lemme know.

And, Hey! I'm Max!